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Deleted User
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23:41 Thu 1 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
Ok enough of this please and keep it on the positive discussion it has been so far.

Thanks
beenjammin
beenjammin
Posts: 2,463
23:54 Thu 1 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
chris said: "I have two games to play - one vs you (a top player) and one v player z (a really poor player). If I am not active and make little effort just for these two weeks I potentially lose both games by default 15-0. In reality, how many players that get their games played score 15? That is not fair on other clans in the League."

By starting off with a predicted score, that couldn't happen unless it was the likely outcome anyway. and still, I doubt the panel would ever give better than 13 or 14 to one side.

"Now in a 2 points for a win scoring system, in the exact same circumstances as above, I lose 2-0. That is exactly the same as any other player scores by playing and beating their opponent. There is no advantage to anybody, or disadvantage to any other clans in the League"

That's no different than giving 15-0, it's still 100% of the points on offer.
No advantage?, it could decide the outcome of the team match/league couldn't it?

"There are also problems in starting from a predicted score. Not for me as I will just get reduced down to zero, but for my opponents who are totally limited on what they can achieve based on a subjective view of their ability. If you (beenjammin) and player z were in clans that were level on points, why would you deserve to win the League over the clan containing player z based on earning a bigger default score from the exact same set of circumstances?"

If the probable score would've been 14-1, and effort was equal,
beenjammin
beenjammin
Posts: 2,463
23:56 Thu 1 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
then my team should win. We would've won had it been played.
Isn't that the point of default scores?, to try and prevent unplayed games from affecting the league standings?
Deleted User
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23:57 Thu 1 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
This is clearly unfair. The answer as it stands would be stand your ground with original player and let it go to default which has been against what most clans try to do.

And some get slandered, ridiculed, harrassed for it
beenjammin
beenjammin
Posts: 2,463
23:57 Thu 1 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
"An issue that would need considering if the FCL changed format would be how to decide the playing order for game types. Clearly each player would want to make sure they played their own favourite game type either first or second rather than risk losing before they even had a chance to play that game type."

^ that's a really good point, hadn't forseen that
Deleted User
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00:00 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
You might start 12-3 vs me whilst player z might start 3-12 vs me. I score zero based on no effort no matter what but you and player z are 9 points apart.

Everybody can achieve 100% of the points though in a points per win system - whether they play or by default.

In a frame scoring system that is probably and realistically not the case.

I would have thought the point of a default was to produce a result in keeping with what everyone was able to achieve given any set of circumstances that exist. And an outcome that certainly does not unduly affect anyone completely uninvolved in it in terms of margins.

I don't like anyone having any idea of what a default outcome might be in the current FCL scoring type system should they opt not to play the game.

Edited at 00:08 Fri 02/05/14 (BST)
beenjammin
beenjammin
Posts: 2,463
00:19 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
You might start 12-3 vs me whilst player z might start 3-12 vs me. I score zero based on no effort no matter what but you and player z are 9 points apart.

Scores that z and I would've most likely received had it been played, correct? I don't see a problem.
Everybody can achieve 100% of the points though in a points per win system - whether they play or by default.

I don't think that's a good thing, it's inaccurate. Why should someone who wins 67% of the frames get 100% of the points on offer?
In a frame scoring system that is probably and realistically not the case.

A more accurate reflection of what actually happens on the table then yeah?
In reality, it's very rare that someone wins 100% of their frames, why should the scoring system act as if it's commonplace?
Deleted User
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00:23 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
Agreed chris a ridiculous idea to have a 'default panel to try guess and work out the mean average from what they determine might/could happen in their opinion.

Default panel should only judge what they are presented with, end of. IF no material or posts submitted simples...0!

The set criteria which the panel will be judging should be made visible to all, so we know what to actually submit and how best to represent our teams.

I'm sure chris didn't want 23 pages full of posts in our last default, so I briefed it down to a summary. Next time I'll send the whole lot unless told what is expected from a team when a default occurs.

That being said - We NEVER play for a default and those who do still reap rewards so only thing I predict is 'defaults are a farce'
beenjammin
beenjammin
Posts: 2,463
00:24 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  

I would have thought the point of a default was to produce a result in keeping with what everyone was able to achieve given any set of circumstances that exist. And an outcome that certainly does not unduly affect anyone completely uninvolved in it in terms of margins.Edited at 00:08 Fri 02/05/14 (BST)

I don't understand your meaning, please explain,
because the way I'm reading it sounds like you like the idea of starting off with a probable score.

Edited at 00:29 Fri 02/05/14 (BST)
punkpoet
punkpoet
Posts: 19,816
00:28 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
Hold on ... is player Z me?
beenjammin
beenjammin
Posts: 2,463
00:30 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
lol, gotta go, I'll look for a reply tomorrow chris
Deleted User
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00:36 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
FCL Season 22

The split happens at the end of the current set of games. At that point, after numerous discussions, it has been decided that for this season the League will split into the top half (aka Division 1) with four clans and the bottom half (aka Division 2) with five clans.

This will leave the following fixtures for the rest of the Season...

Fixture Set 7

The Professionals v Phoenix Storm
Uprising v The Unbeatables
Pocket Dynamos v Ballbreakers
Wolf Pack v The Underdogs
Pocket Dynamos v The Underdogs
Wolf Pack v Monkey Business
Monkey Business v Ballbreakers

Fixture Set 8 (Final)

The Professionals v The Unbeatables
Uprising v Phoenix Storm
The Unbeatables v Phoenix Storm
The Professionals v Uprising
Pocket Dynamos v Wolf Pack
Pocket Dynamos v Monkey Business
Wolf Pack v Ballbreakers
Monkey Business v The Underdogs
The Underdogs v Ballbreakers

Please can I have team lists for the Fixture Set 7 games so that they can be released by Sunday night. Ideally by Sunday morning as I will be leaving for work by 1 pm.

Thanks
punkpoet
punkpoet
Posts: 19,816
00:53 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
Ouch PDS are the only team to have the other top 2 rivals at the same time
chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
08:41 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
Agreed chris a ridiculous idea to have a 'default panel to try guess and work out the mean average from what they determine might/could happen in their opinion.

Default panel should only judge what they are presented with, end of. IF no material or posts submitted simples...0!

The set criteria which the panel will be judging should be made visible to all, so we know what to actually submit and how best to represent our teams.

I'm sure chris didn't want 23 pages full of posts in our last default, so I briefed it down to a summary. Next time I'll send the whole lot unless told what is expected from a team when a default occurs.

That being said - We NEVER play for a default and those who do still reap rewards so only thing I predict is 'defaults are a farce'


Why is guessing the outcome of a game 'ridiculous'?

If Been needed a score of 10-5 minimum to win the league against me (I know it wont happen due to the split, but hear me out), and if circumstances like the last set happen where I have 0 subs, and my lappy breaks, so I can't get on to play.

We are both trying to get the games played, and putting a lot of effort in, so why should the score be 7-7?

If I could have got on to play, the probable outcome would have been a heavy win for Been, but because I had no subs, and could not get on, but was making a lot of effort to get the game played, Pro's lose out on the league?

Now that seems ridiculous.
chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
09:00 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
The whole point of having a member from each team on the panel, is so that a realistic score could be achieved.

This is not saying that that would be score achieved, on my day I could probably run most people to the wire (except in 9us ) but the most likely is if I play a top player, I will lose.

My recent score against erigert, i think was 13-2 or 12-3, I had an off day but the scoreline was one I myself would have expected and so would most others on the site.

I think Been mentioned earlier that the panel would very very rarely put a 15-0 down, its not often that happens, usually down to a fluke in 9ball lol.

The whole point of starting the default with the probable outcome is so the teams who make the effort, will not lose out on the points that they would have most likely have achieved.

In fixture set 7, I would like the chance to trial the system, I have had the backing from the league runners, and most of the captains, so I shall ask for a vote, from now until the end of today if you are in favour of having this trial or not, please say, the majority wins.
chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
09:01 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
In favour of trial (1)
chapster_7


against the trial (0)
Deleted User
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09:08 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
In favour of trial (2)
chapster_7
pointless

against the trial (0)
Deleted User
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09:10 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
Given those circumstances of you in effect not being able to demonstrate any activity/effort you would not score 7. The score for been would always be totally independent of yours and knowing his keeness along with that of his clan their score would not be far off the maximum 15, and they would rightly expect that.

The only way you can negate that is to apply that commonly to all defaults so let's say hypothetically throughout the whole season you did exactly the same thing in each and every game you had. As long as your opponents were all reasonably and equally active they would all get exactly the same score, thereby completely negating the effect of the default across the board.

I am not saying scores on a predicted basis would not work better than the current system in a frame scoring format, I am just saying that the problem itself is the frame scoring format.

It would be far better and far more realistic to say that in the situation of an absent/inactive player that they simply 'lost' the game and not have to worry about saying by how many and what the effect of that might be on everybody. That is what happens in pretty much any competition I can think of. I can't think of any competition where games are 'forfeited' and yet still the score has to be predicted?
chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
09:19 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
I understand that, but at least the system I am proposing negates most of the issues with default scores.

If lose to Been, 15-0, then I can have no qualms about that. But say we both make max effort, try subs but the game never happens (very unlikely but...) why should pros potentially miss out on top spot because of that.

i know that i could cause a Ding/Wasley style shock and pip him 8-7 if he was blindfolded and pushing his mouse with his face, but in most instances he would trounce me, especially in a game which would mean so much.

So why not take that out of the situation and start with a probable score, anywhere between 10-5 to 15-0 to Been, and then deduct points for lack of activity.

So if we both tried our best to get the game played, then neither would lose points, but if i didnt try as hard, then I lose points and Been still win.

This panel would also help against tactical subbing, the players who start the fixture, are the players who the panel would judge the default on.
erigert
erigert
Posts: 6,410
09:25 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
I was just thinking for another way to get rid of defaults.

Why not put a period, for example a two week deadline, after the season has finished, to get played all the remaining games that havent been played during the season. The fixtures should remain original, unless someone has deactivated or got banned. If the fixture still doesnt get played in this two weeks, than both players deserve 0 points in my opinion.
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