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chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
09:26 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
I was just thinking for another way to get rid of defaults.

Why not put a period, for example a two week deadline, after the season has finished, to get played all the remaining games that havent been played during the season. The fixtures should remain original, unless someone has deactivated or got banned. If the fixture still doesnt get played in this two weeks, than both players deserve 0 points in my opinion.


What happens if a player has transferred to a rival team, or even that team, may skew results mate?
erigert
erigert
Posts: 6,410
09:28 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
I was just thinking for another way to get rid of defaults.

Why not put a period, for example a two week deadline, after the season has finished, to get played all the remaining games that havent been played during the season. The fixtures should remain original, unless someone has deactivated or got banned. If the fixture still doesnt get played in this two weeks, than both players deserve 0 points in my opinion.


What happens if a player has transferred to a rival team, or even that team, may skew results mate?


i didnt think about that, but in this case the team which player has transfered to another team can put in another player to get the game done.
chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
09:32 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
It is worth thinking about, but once the season has ended I can imagine most people, if they have nothing to play for, will not bother.

And also, if people know that leaving a game wont bother them too much at the time, then most wont put the amount of effort they do to get games played.

Just my thoughts
Deleted User
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09:38 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
Then you are completely doing away with deadlines? Most defaults are avoided because clans are willing to sub players even at a cost to themselves. That would never happen with no deadlines - there would be no point so you would end up with numerous unplayed games in the extension.

Given the exact same circumstances why should been score 10 points whilst another player might score 9. The margins involved in this decision making are just far too tight bearing in mind the nature of this game.

The only thing you could realistically predict is a win, lose or draw. But you couldn't do that based on apparent abilities, you can only do that on someone's readiness and willingness and availability or otherwise to play.
chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
09:51 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
Then you are completely doing away with deadlines? Most defaults are avoided because clans are willing to sub players even at a cost to themselves. That would never happen with no deadlines - there would be no point so you would end up with numerous unplayed games in the extension.

Given the exact same circumstances why should been score 10 points whilst another player might score 9. The margins involved in this decision making are just far too tight bearing in mind the nature of this game.

The only thing you could realistically predict is a win, lose or draw. But you couldn't do that based on apparent abilities, you can only do that on someone's readiness and willingness and availability or otherwise to play.


I think that that is where we differ chris, I wholeheartedly believe a players ability should be taken into account when deciding a default, especially due to the nature of this game.

I know some people are against the idea and some are for it, but with the people who have said they will be on my panel, I have a varied range of people, and enough people so that one persons view wont skew the overall outcome
Deleted User
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10:03 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
I am not against it necessarily in the frame scoring format. However in that format, any score that is decided by any method has the potential to affect the outcomes of a whole season.

I just think players should be aware of options that have the potential to be better, and certainly fairer, to all and decide whether its a change they want to make in terms of match scoring formats. Lets remember also that most players go in to a clan match looking to come out with a win and most look at getting the win first and foremost rather than by how many. That is natural. Normally you go in to any match with the sole aim of beating your direct opponent.

On the reverse side how many players lose interest when they have reached the point that they can no longer beat the opponent to the point where the last few racks are just a gift because players just want to get out of there?

All of these aren't good features of a truly competitive competition.

None of these negative features arise in a match scoring format. There is no need to play any 'dead' rack and defaults are straight forward.

Everyone just needs to consider the rack scoring format and what they actually like about it and then dispassionately say whether what they like outweighs the many negatives of it.
faust
faust
Posts: 9,966
10:06 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
In the FCL, I like the fact that you can lose more games than you win, but 2 huge scores can see you through to the team victory. That rewards the 2 best performances in the fixture. However, I'm happy whatever the scoring system is tbh - I don't think either way would spoil my enjoyment of the league.
erigert
erigert
Posts: 6,410
10:08 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
I think the Fcl format its ok how it is. The only changes that can be made is to find a new way how to do defaults and reduce the bonus points from 20 to 10.
faust
faust
Posts: 9,966
10:10 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
I think the Fcl format its ok how it is. The only changes that can be made is to find a new way how to do defaults and reduce the bonus points from 20 to 10.


Can we have some examples of FCL defaults, and why they're considered so problematic? I don't see the huge issue here?
erigert
erigert
Posts: 6,410
10:15 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
I think the Fcl format its ok how it is. The only changes that can be made is to find a new way how to do defaults and reduce the bonus points from 20 to 10.


Can we have some examples of FCL defaults, and why they're considered so problematic? I don't see the huge issue here?


this season hasnt had too many defaults but the one before this certainly damaged SS in their race to the title by awarding them few points in the games vs Underdogs (which didnt have available subs)
Deleted User
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10:15 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
My own personal view was to pretty much leave the FCL unchanged for all its problems. Once you get into the realms of Split leagues and clans playing others of similar ability twice, then the issue of bonus points becomes largely irrelevant.

As this is a general discussion about next season, any views on any thing else proposed. Changing FBL scoring so that individual game wins carry through to the league table, keeping the SL or not, if not then incorporating event bonuses to FBL, if kept reducing SL game format back to the original 6 racks (like redherring's world cup), the separate Killer competition?

I can post the idea of how the Killer games would get arranged if people want a separate Killer competition.
chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
10:17 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
Personally, I would love to see FCL as a frame scored format, no win bonus or anything like that.

The team who wins the most frames in a season, is the overall winner.
Some people say that a team who wins all their fixtures, still might win the league, in my view that doesnt really matter to me, as every team has the same opportunity against every other side.
if over the whole course of a season, you don't win as many fixtures as another team, you wont be in front of them.
Deleted User
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10:20 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
if over the whole course of a season, you don't win as many fixtures as another team, you wont be in front of them.


Ahh but that's where you're wrong and it has been proved so.

as every team has the same opportunity against every other side.


Unfortunately that is not necessarily true either. Lets go back to your scenario somewhere above where you aren't active and have no subs.

If my clan is drawn to play you at that time I have an expectation that I am going to emerge from it with far more points than the next clan that plays you when you are active and have recruited. That shouldn't be the case ideally. Each clan should have the same expectation at all times.

To show that, if we play you and won every match, no matter how competitive the games were, we win 16pts to 0. The same goes if your clan has problems, inactive players and no subs.

In the FCL as it stands now, my clan might win every game 8-7 and score 64-56 whereas a rival clan to me plays you when you had problems and scores something like 96 or more from the unplayed games. That's at least a 30 point advantage for nothing.

Edited at 10:29 Fri 02/05/14 (BST)
erigert
erigert
Posts: 6,410
10:23 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
My own personal view was to pretty much leave the FCL unchanged for all its problems. Once you get into the realms of Split leagues and clans playing others of similar ability twice, then the issue of bonus points becomes largely irrelevant.

As this is a general discussion about next season, any views on any thing else proposed. Changing FBL scoring so that individual game wins carry through to the league table, keeping the SL or not, if not then incorporating event bonuses to FBL, if kept reducing SL game format back to the original 6 racks (like redherring's world cup), the separate Killer competition?


Well ill give my opinion in all of them

FCL
The only changes that can be made is to find a new way how to do defaults and reduce the bonus points from 20 to 10.

FBL
Add the individual points that a player get by winning the fixture directly in the table. U may also give two bonus points for overall win or 1 point for a draw. The number of frames is ok in my opinion, i have really liked the short format this season

Superleague
Leave it as it is, or if we make a killer competition than remove killer from it and add one more individual game (make them 6).

Killer competition
this would be a great idea, and for making defaults here just use the system its used on snooker. Thats why the number of killers that go to default there is too low.
faust
faust
Posts: 9,966
10:24 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
FCL is always the premier event and I've enjoyed it this season as much as last. Any changes should remain minimal, but I'd be happy with whatever the majority wants, or the League Runner decides.

Super League is my favourite. I'd hate to see it go. I do think it is geared purely to reward attacking players though, and I still think 3 fouls should be included in the bonus points!

Regarding FBL, the thing that makes it good is that you play your specialists in each game type. As long as that isn't changed - I couldn't care less about the amount of frames, or the scoring format.
chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
10:29 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  
if over the whole course of a season, you don't win as many fixtures as another team, you wont be in front of them.


Ahh but that's where you're wrong and it has been proved so.


Sorry, I picked my wording wrong there, I meant individual games.

If you don't win as many individual games as your opponents over the course of a season, I don't think you should be crowned champions.

Every team goes into a fixture with the potential to win 120 frames (correct me if im wrong), and that should be all that is up for grabs.
Just counting frames won, not frame difference, because then games against the teams you are in direct competition against become more important.
Again, just my thoughts on the matter
Deleted User
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10:34 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  

Sorry, I picked my wording wrong there, I meant individual games.

If you don't win as many individual games as your opponents over the course of a season, I don't think you should be crowned champions.


So in a team competition you see one player winning a game 15-0 or getting a big default as being enough to outweigh seven other individual losses gained by his team mates?

I am not being difficult, and I am not saying youre right or wrong, just throwing it out there again?

Also to be taken in conjunction with edited post above...

http://www.funkypool.com/thread/19426/fcl-general-discussion/95#1661906
Deleted User
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10:38 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  

Killer competition
this would be a great idea, and for making defaults here just use the system its used on snooker. Thats why the number of killers that go to default there is too low.


There would be no need for any defaults other than a 0-0 if my theory works!!
erigert
erigert
Posts: 6,410
10:39 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  

Killer competition
this would be a great idea, and for making defaults here just use the system its used on snooker. Thats why the number of killers that go to default there is too low.


There would be no need for any defaults other than a 0-0 if my theory works!!


than explain us your theory
chapster_7
chapster_7
Posts: 5,080
10:41 Fri 2 May 14 (BST)  [Link]  

Sorry, I picked my wording wrong there, I meant individual games.

If you don't win as many individual games as your opponents over the course of a season, I don't think you should be crowned champions.


So in a team competition you see one player winning a game 15-0 or getting a big default as being enough to outweigh seven other individual losses gained by his team mates?

I am not being difficult, and I am not saying youre right or wrong, just throwing it out there again?

Also to be taken in conjunction with edited post above...

http://www.funkypool.com/thread/19426/fcl-general-discussion/95#1661906


Fair question, in an ideal world the game would have been played.
But if player A if good enough to beat player B, both made as much effort as feasibly possible, then why should that affect what he would most likely have got if they played.
As I have said before, nothing is ever going to keep everyone happy, due to allowing defaults to be part of the game, but trying to find the fairest method of dealing with them which wouldn't affect the most likely outcome.
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