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beenjammin
beenjammin
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18:54 Thu 20 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
Chris said:
"Now in frame count Uprising might have played and won 8 points whilst The Pros might get 12 or more in a default. Even if you make the argument that had Pros managed to play the game they could have won it 15-0 so they may have lost 3 points, or the Uprising player should have done better than the 8-7, 1the fact remains that the best way is to say 'a win is equal in impact to any other win however achieved'. 2The Pros have gained from something completely outside of Uprising's control and that 4 or more points difference (plus any others elsewhere throughout the season) is something that Uprising would have to make up across the rest of the season through no fault of their own in addition to looking to simply defeat The Pros when they play them.

Now that does not happen in match scoring systems except where clans finish level on team match points but at least by then Uprising have to have at least not won all of their team matches or possibly not beaten The Pros. Before that they would be 100% in control of their own destiny regardless of what effort any other clan makes in their other games 3and regardless of any default scores."

1 But what if they'd both played that game? an 8-7 and a 15-0? It's not accurate to give them the same reward.
2 You don't know that, any defaults may have helped or hurt them.

Edited at 17:11 Thu 20/11/14 (GMT)
beenjammin
beenjammin
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18:54 Thu 20 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
3 Only if a default didn't sway any of their team matches in their favor, if it did, then that one default decided the whole season!. Other wise, yes, what you say is true, but defaults could still affect every other team's standings.

I don't see how any of that proves one method has a smaller chance of defaults deciding the league.

Edited at 17:12 Thu 20/11/14 (GMT)
beenjammin
beenjammin
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18:57 Thu 20 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
Been actually mentioned the season before last and said how close the frame count was although Uprising had actually gained better team vs team match results. One of the reasons it was so close was that The Pros gained a number of very large default wins whereas Uprising played far more actual games, including pinning down the very same opponents that The Pros couldn't for whatever reason(?!), taking their chances in play, either good or bad, in terms of comparable results to the defaults awarded for The Pros.

That's nothing but guess work. Noone is to say whether those defaults hurt or helped us.
Deleted User
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20:47 Thu 20 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  

That's nothing but guess work. Noone is to say whether those defaults hurt or helped us.


OMG That is the point is it not???? It should neither hurt nor help you either way!!! The rest of the points raised are either the same as this or they don't warrant a response!!
beenjammin
beenjammin
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01:10 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
It should neither hurt nor help you either way, but it could, in any scoring system. Your mistake is assuming that it helped. You say frame count was close because of the defaults, as if it wouldn't have been so close if they'd been played, when pros may just as likely have won the frame count if they'd been played. Noone knows, no one can know.

Don't you understand? Your point (this one, and the underlined part I labeled #2 in the other point) is based on the assumption that the defaults helped us, when they just as likely hurt us.
That means the point you're trying to make is hogwash, because it's not based on facts.

All the points I've made on this page show things like that, assumptions or flaws in your logic.

Edited at 23:33 Thu 20/11/14 (GMT)
Deleted User
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02:33 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
What part of a winning default 'should neither hurt nor help you either way' is difficult to understand? Maybe underlining it helps with bold and itallic too?

OK lets try a different tact in case it is the default issue blurring your logic.

Two players are playing a game and one, for whatever reason, loses interest, stops trying and basically just throws racks away to give the opponent a large win. That happens, it has happened in games I have been involved in and against players who have gone on to play for The Pros and other good clans.

In a match scoring format, that is irrelevant. The end outcome is either just an individual win in that game or in a team match it might lead to a team win or a slightly bigger team win. Although 100% not ideal of course, it does not overly matter which because any other clan once again, as with the default scenario, is not unduly hurt by that happening. They are still in control because they can more than outweigh it just by beating the benefitting clan themselves as they would have to do no matter what anyway.

In a frame count format, however, suddenly simply beating the benefitting clan may not be enough. They now also potentially need to win by a big margin just to cancel out one player's decision to 'throw' a match.

All of these examples and all of the other arguments put forward are faults in the frame count system. You cannot find any similar fault in a match count system. The accuracy card simply doesn't wash (its hogwash in fact). It cannot be guaranteed to be accurate for so many reasons. The match count format deals more fairly with every single situation that arises and is more accurate in producing a credible overall winner because clans are in control of their own destiny and never going to be solely at the mercy of events elsewhere except when they have not achieved the required team match results themselves. Where they have then they can not, and should not, be expected to do more than that simply to make up for the actions of others elsewhere and a ridiculous format.
beenjammin
beenjammin
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04:03 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
"What part of a winning default 'should neither hurt nor help you either way' is difficult to understand?"
I understand that, and agree (that should be the goal of a default decision when the team isn't at fault), doesn't change the fact that it could, in any scoring system.

"OK lets try a different tact in case it is the default issue blurring your logic."
Isn't that what we're debating? You keep pretending that frame count exacerbates the possibility of a default effecting league standings, and I keep pointing out how defaults have an equal chance of that in any scoring system. You make an argument in attempt to prove it, and then I point out flawed logic in your argument, showing that you haven't proven anything. Then you go in a circle and repeat yourself with the same points I've already proven to be flawed, or simply how they don't prove anything, as if getting the last word will make you correct.

"In a match scoring format, that is irrelevant. The end outcome is either just an individual win in that game or in a team match it might lead to a team win or a slightly bigger team win."
In an indiv match system, yes (but only because it's lost in inaccuracy). In a team match system, you just admitted yourself it has an effect just the same as frame count.

"They now also potentially need to win by a big margin just to cancel out one player's decision to 'throw' a match."
He is a member of their team is he not? It's their own fault for giving up!

Edited at 02:27 Fri 21/11/14 (GMT)
beenjammin
beenjammin
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04:03 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
If it was a league where every frame matters then he went into the match knowing that.

"All of these examples and all of the other arguments put forward are faults in the frame count system."
I haven't seen you point out anything un-just about frame count that wasn't based on assumption, flawed logic, or was simply not true.

"You cannot find any similar fault in a match count system."
You just admitted yourself above, that what you believe to be a fault (doesn't mean it is one, I say its his own fault for giving up) happens just the same in team match count.

"The match count format deals1 more fairly with every single situation that arises and2 is more accurate in producing a credible overall winner because clans are in control of their own destiny and never going to be solely at the mercy of events elsewhere..."

1 I've yet to see proof of that, only flawed attempts.

2 Not true, makes me want to remind you of golf again. How well a player needs to do in order to win depends directly on events elsewhere, but he's still in control of his own game! Or does that mean golf tournaments aren't credible?

I'm bored with the circles, content in having proven my point for anyone willing to understand it. Go ahead, repeat yourself and change the subject again, get the last word if it helps you feel correct.

Edited at 02:20 Fri 21/11/14 (GMT)

Edited at 02:22 Fri 21/11/14 (GMT)
Deleted User
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10:25 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
In golf you are in complete control of your own ball. If it goes in the hole, you put it there. Cannot say the same for pool which is why you could never compare a game like pool/ tennis/ football etc to golf/ darts etc. You could however give hundreds of examples of sports that chose match scoring format over points count such as tennis, football, American football, baseball, basketball, rugby union, rugby league...........
Deleted User
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10:46 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
How is the golden cue decided in the FCL?
Deleted User
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11:42 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
"What part of a winning default 'should neither hurt nor help you either way' is difficult to understand?"
I understand that, and agree (that should be the goal of a default decision when the team isn't at fault), doesn't change the fact that it could, in any scoring system. (1) Show me how because you have not yet.

"OK lets try a different tact in case it is the default issue blurring your logic."
Isn't that what we're debating? You keep pretending that frame count exacerbates the possibility of a default effecting league standings, and I keep pointing out how defaults have an equal chance of that in any scoring system. (2) As above show me how. You make an argument in attempt to prove it, and then I point out flawed logic in your argument, showing that you haven't proven anything. Then you go in a circle and repeat yourself with the same points I've already proven to be flawed, or simply how they don't prove anything, as if getting the last word will make you correct. (3) You have not shown any flaw in any argument - if you had I would respond to that. But you dont so I cant.

"In a match scoring format, that is irrelevant. The end outcome is either just an individual win in that game or in a team match it might lead to a team win or a slightly bigger team win."
In an indiv match system, yes (but only because it's lost in inaccuracy). In a team match system, you just admitted yourself it has an effect just the same as frame count. (4) No it does not. Any other clan that was not involved in that particular match has no extra requirement on it other than the normal competitive need simply to defeat the opposing team that was involved over the course of its own team match(es). There is no additional base starting requirement to achieve a margin of win to negate something that happened elsewhere.

"They now also potentially need to win by a big margin just to cancel out one player's decision to 'throw' a match."
He is a member of their team is he not? It's their own fault for giving up! (5) No he was not a member of their team. That is the point. He was a member of a third team. Therefore they have to make up for an event caused by a third team that was completely outside of their control by having to win their own matches by a certain margin rather than by just winning which they would otherwise!!

Deleted User
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12:09 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
"All of these examples and all of the other arguments put forward are faults in the frame count system."
I haven't seen you point out anything un-just about frame count that wasn't based on assumption, flawed logic, or was simply not true. (1) I have done nothing but that over the previous posts. You refuse to accept the basic premise that margins of wins should not take precedence over wins, therefore I have to give hypothetical or real situations to show why.

"You cannot find any similar fault in a match count system."
You just admitted yourself above, that what you believe to be a fault (doesn't mean it is one, I say its his own fault for giving up) happens just the same in team match count. (2) I have not admitted one. What are you reading? I have said that at worst it might give the benefitting team a bigger margin of victory than may otherwise have been attained. However that margin can be fully negated by any other clan simply winning every one of their team matches. That is something realistic that they have complete control of at the start of the season. It is also something they have complete control of during the season if you are only seeking won team fixtures. The big win from the default or the thrown game examples will only impact if two or more clans end up with the same team match points at the season end. By that stage for that to have happened, all the other clans that finished level on points did have the chance to have finished higher but have to have lost or drawn team matches somewhere along the line. It was in their own hands 100% though.

2 Not true, makes me want to remind you of golf again. How well a player needs to do in order to win depends directly on events elsewhere, but he's still in control of his own game! Or does that mean golf tournaments aren't credible? (3) The equivalent golf tournament on here is actually a matchplay format like a Ryder Cup. And that renders margins of wins irrelevant as I have said numerous times before. Strokeplay tournaments are completely different and an example of one of your flawed arguments. In strokeplay I am 100% in control of my own destiny at all times. I am playing everybody on the course at the same time. There is no game going on elsewhere which I am not party to and which means I may have to beat a particular opponent by a certain number of stokes to win the tournament. I only have to beat the opponent(s).


Edited at 12:03 Fri 21/11/14 (GMT)
Deleted User
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12:18 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
How is the golden cue decided in the FCL?


Is that a genuine question because you don't know or a question to make a point about frame count??

I'll take it as the first. It is based on the percentage of won frames from played frames subject to certain qualifying requirements.

Is it 100% an accurate reflection? Absolutely 100% no. For starters all players do not play opponents from all clans so straight away any player from any of the best clans have an advantage over anyone from weaker clans. It is also subject to all the other frame count flaws that exist. That said it is what it is and it is a bit of fun.

And within the current FCL system it is fine to remain as many of those flaws that impact higher on clans are ironed over by the win bonus points.
Deleted User
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12:44 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
Cor blimey! Just read through all that and I thought I was on page one of the thread again.....
Deleted User
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12:52 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
No flies on you are there chris

I said it just to make sure, and was possibly going to make a point about frame count.

But from reading everything that has been said, it is clear that more people are in favour of keeping the system the way it is. And as a democracy type system we have in place, the majority gets the win.

I am happy to keep the system the way it is, but progress is never made without ideas.

Maybe me and Been could find a new idea (which may or may not include frame count haha )
Deleted User
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12:57 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  

Maybe me and Been could find a new idea (which may or may not include frame count haha )


Absolutely. Or you could run your own clan competition based purely on frame count if you truly believe it to be credible. Clans will take part in it I am sure.

You just need to accept the criticism from the majority at the moment a team with a better overall team match record (according to all normal competition logic based around wins over margins) does not win the competition as has happned once in FCL and once in FBL from memory. Once is one time too many in my view.
Deleted User
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13:05 Fri 21 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
Before this kicks off again!!!

I would like to thank everyone involved on the playing side and the running side for your efforts in FCL23, FBL11, SL6, TPC6, GSC2, GSCPC1 and KC1!!!

It is only as good as the enjoyment you all derive from it, however you choose to derive it.
Deleted User
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22:27 Sat 22 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
FCL 24 now open for entries.

No major changes to the competition.

One minor rule change is to be made which will remove the Transfer Window and the previous transfer system.

http://funkypoolclanleagues.weebly.com/fcl-rules---clan-format.html

Rule 1.4

Once the season commences there will be no transfers allowed between clans. Players may be removed from the clan and replaced. If they become active again they can be brought back into the clan subject to there being an available space. Any player removed is not considered a Free Agent.

Players may also be released by a clan. Any player released is considered a Free Agent.

Only in exceptional circumstances will League Runners consider requests from players to direct their clan to release them if not already formally released voluntarily.

Therefore the important thing for all players is to be with their right clan of choice at the point the season commences.

If you wish to take part in FCL 24 please post below...

Edited at 20:36 Sat 22/11/14 (GMT)
zantetsukenz
zantetsukenz
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22:34 Sat 22 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
Uprising in
horse10000
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22:45 Sat 22 Nov 14 (GMT)  [Link]  
Unbeatables in
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FCL - General Discussion

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