No it just confirms what I said in that other clans with a similar number of changes do not engender the same level of grief.

You are forever singling us out, your issue isn't my team it's me. Using subs and swaps it just a ploy to try and amplify your issue(s) with how I operate.

As the lists show though, we are not as drastic as people have tried to make out. Agree way too many and that will be addressed, if means change of players etc then we will make those decisions. Just cut us and me some slack and understand am only trying our/my best.

I think the issue is more about the sub made and the impact and influence it could have on the overall result. Those players (subs) are on our team list, we are free and able to utilise them as and when we deem fit.

Every single captain of every other clan has taken issue with his use of tactical subs/swaps this season. The aggressive posts are a result of relations becoming strained due to friction caused by the tactic, not because of an initial clash of personality.

It's also an absolute myth that the 8 or 9 people that regularly post their grievances are the only people that are annoyed.

It's a massive shame that a great set of rules are going to be changed because the site is fed up of one individuals actions. I really hope that if a vote is being taken, the majority see sense. And I'd rather rather watch my house burn down than agree with Craig - but on the rule change issue, I do!

You are spot on the issue is you. I said before the season starts you shouldn't captain and I think it now more than ever. You manipulate fixtures, you demand subs as players are online yet you are completely unwilling to do the same. You tell teams to make a sub cause of no shows and then don't make subs when your player is a no show. You continually play the victim yet are quite happy to go on people's threads and start arguements. To top it all off you are the least moral person running any clan who is a proven liar!!!!

The subs and swaps list Chris just made goes to highlight you talk waffle. If you weren't in the league and I mean specifically you, the league would be happier and the rules wouldn't have to change.

Nobody is singling 15th man out. People are exclusively singling YOU out Ash. You have signalled your intent to cut down using the same tactics. I can't speak for everyone, but if you do - you won't be having anymore arguments from me. I just hope it happens before everyone votes for a needless rule change.

Not only is 68%-87% is a huge variance it's an awful percentage completion if you are aiming to keep the original team fixtures intact.....

.

Edited at 13:54 Fri 30/01/15 (GMT)

Me and faust very rarely agree but on this occasion we do, there is NO need for a Needless Rule Change. I will cut down the unnecessary subbing, swaps are in my opinion kept to as minimal as possible too. What I would appreciate is the ridiculous questioning and us feeling the need to justify every little action we make which results in us feeling segregated. The majority are for genuine and plausible reasons.

Before any Needless rule change, give us/me a chance to at least try and address your concerns, thanks.

The figures show that without any subs or swaps between 2/3rds and 8/9ths of all games still get played.

That is without anyone making any excessive or undue effort to get games arranged because there is always the fall back position of having subs and swaps. With no subs and swaps I actually believe the stats would see an average of 7 games out of 8 being completed per fixture.

Dont get me wrong I would rather see 8 out of 8 get completed.

I will state my own preference. It is to keep things exactly as they are and accept unlimited subs and swaps and the fact that they may or may not be tactical subject to the following.

Clans to actively avoid naming players in the starting line ups suspected to be inactive at that time. Any subsequently identfied will be queried by the Runners.

There would be no subs or swaps allowable for an initial period unless a request was made, and both clans agreed, because of either a) one or two inactive players being in the fixture or b) due to an agreed problem existing re time zones.

These subs and swaps would be agreed formally in the forum before any game was played. Any arguing over the facts of the proposed sub/swap to be conducted as far as possible in offline messages between the parties and only in the event of an unresolved outcome either way, then a final decision being requested from myself or one of the other Runners.

For the remaining period of the fixture, subs and swaps would be unlimited. Any clan feeling aggrieved at the actions of their opponents would have, as now, the choice of either acceding to the request and playing the game or opposing it and letting the game stand against the named opponent or remain unplayed. Default scores will always take into account all factors in producing a fair outcome to both parties based on the actions of both clans throughout the entire two weeks. It will never focus unduly on the last few days.

Edited at 14:00 Fri 30/01/15 (GMT)

U got it wrong chris, i checked the subs/swaps on the thread only for FBL and thats how it looks

The Revolution (16 subs 1 swap)
Professionals (8 subs 1 swap)
Uprising (9 subs 2 swaps)
Pocket Dynamos ( 9 subs 4 swaps)
XVth Man (19 subs 5 swaps)
F.P.D ( 14 subs 3swaps)
Pool Sharks ( 21 subs 1 swap)
Unbeatables ( 4 subs 3 swaps)

As I said, I never claimed it to be accurate. The figures were taken from the fixture score sheets as I was not trawling through the sub thread forums and then cross checking to the individual clan forums. The fixture score sheets rely on us putting the changes in when the scores were entered and probably would not reflect more than one sub in the same fixture. Whatever the exact figures are its not changing the fact that no single clan is outstripping any other in terms of numbers and that the vast majority of games are still completed with no changes.

Edited at 14:01 Fri 30/01/15 (GMT)

Quantity isn't neccessarily the issue (but it is a result of the issue), it is unnecessary swaps and subs which is more of a judgement call than an objective stat.

Another thing I would like to see that compared to is the old system. Was the original players completion rate higher even with a higher default rate.

Ash says he's stopping using tactical subs. I think we should take him at face value, play under these rules until the end of the season and if no-one has any more grievances over it, then there's no need to change! Then we can go back to arguing about scoring systems!! :D

True but while you look at the subs made u will see that they are made for these reasons:
* Inactivity - Most of Pool Sharks, F.P.D, Pros and The Revolution subs are made for this reason
* To ensure games getting played more easily, but not because the original players were inactive for a lot of days- Most of the subs made by Pocket Dynamos, Uprising and Unbeatables are made for this reason
* Tactical subbing - Most of XVTH Man subs are tactical, the players that they subbed out/swapped are usually active and never get defaults.

Can you justify that erigert? Write down 5 subs we've made and i'll write 1 line sentences to confirm - IF were tactical I'll simply write tactical by them.

1.
9us: Sub
Was: _aquarius12_ vs horse10000
Is now: hippesville vs horse10000

2.
Was: the__priest vs r1p0m4n_v2
Now: crazykid vs r1p0m4n_v2

3.
Was: _aquarius12_ vs davybaumers
Now hippesville: _ vs davybaumers

4.
Swap: My fault
Was: (8us) crazykid vs miss_harriet & (9us) reminiscent vs crazy_greg
Now: (8us) reminiscent vs miss_harriet & (9us) crazykid vs crazy_greg

5.
Was: jittzdulay vs anoneeemouse
Is now: friendyboy/jittzdulay vs anoneeemouse

Insert Been member tag here..

Even if this is true, the numbers and any tactical element can only either be stopped by no subs or limited by limited subs.

Otherwise the tactical element is totally acceptable because there is no other worthwhile option.

Thats what i personally want, limited subs.

Let's bury this. There's nothing to argue over now. Ash has admitted he has made some tactical subs and now intends to stop it. I don't see any value in retreading old ground. Let's finish this season with little game manipulation from every clan, and hopefully go into next season without a need for any rule changes. (Have I mentioned I'm against changing the rules?) :P

BTW Chris, as much as I see all the advantages of 6 frame formats, I'm fairly sure the vast majority of the site would like to see a return to 12 frame SL. Either way I'm not particularly bothered, but I'd be interested what all the other clans think. Personally, I consider the 8 frames in FBL to be a short format. If SL stays at 6 frames, I'd maybe like to see FBL extended to 10?