pros in (as per matty)

XVth Man - IN

upcoming champs in! (Pool Sharks)

F.P.D in

Uprising in
Unbeatables in
pros in (as per matty)
XVth Man - IN
upcoming champs in! (Pool Sharks)
F.P.D in
Pocket Dynamos in.

Edited at 09:22 Sun 23/11/14 (GMT)

Baize Burners "IN"

Uprising in
Unbeatables in
pros in (as per matty)
XVth Man - IN
upcoming champs in! (Pool Sharks)
F.P.D in
Pocket Dynamos in.
Baize Burners "IN"

I think that is everybody in for the season now.

The season will kick off on Sunday 7th December 2014.

Please can I start having your team lists. Remember team lists can be altered up until the first games are released at approx 8pm on 7/12/14.

Thanks

Ok chris, the thread isn't busy, and I've some time to spare, I'll bite You said:
"What part of a winning default 'should neither hurt nor help you either way' is difficult to understand?"
I understand that, and agree (that should be the goal of a default decision when the team isn't at fault), doesn't change the fact that it could, in any scoring system. "Show me how because you have not yet."
I actually did go into into it briefly here:
http://www.funkypool.com/thread/19738/fcl-general-discussion/46#1701915
described how it can in team match count at least, you've reminded us plenty of times how it can in frame count. But Ok, I'll go through each scoring system.
First off any default anywhere isn't guaranteed to have any effect, it may have no effect (if the default decision happens to be what the score would've been anyway for that team had it been played), it may hurt the team that won the decision (if the default score is lower), or it may help them (if it was higher), but I'll look at the likelyhood of it having an effect in each system (where there's any difference), and the maximum possible effect it could have in each system, may take a while. I might even get bored and decide to finish tomorrow

Only 8 teams, surely with the folding of 2 sides, their players (free agents) could be made up in to a team of their own?

The Forgetmenots? lol

Edited at 17:02 Mon 24/11/14 (GMT)

Frame Count
Maximum possible effect of a default?
15 points. (for the sake of making it simple, I'll do each type as if we only play each other team once) 8 teams to play each other once, 840 frames (points to be awarded) played throughout the season, so 1.79% of the points available for the season is the maximum possible effect of one default decision.

You should also consider how improbable it is that it could actually have that much effect, you'd need a 15-0 decision (very rare) before it's rendered possible, in a situation where the actual score would've 15-0 the other way around, of course you couldn't know if it even happened, but that's what would be required. I would think most defaults that hurt/help will do it by less 5 points (0.6%).
So a default in frame count could possibly hurt/help by anywhere between 0 and 1.79% of the points available through out season, but most times it's gonna be far less than 1%.
Likelyhood of having an effect
In frame count, however small the effect, all of the defaults that hurt/help will affect the league table.

Very interesting read

Current FCL (frame count and team match count)
Maximum possible effect of a default?
Instead of a total of 840 points, it's now 980, so 15 becomes 1.53%. Otherwise, all considerations are the same. Until you consider:
Points for team matches, now you have to consider the possibility, could the default have swayed the team match?
It would depend on how close the match was, did one team have a big enough lead to cancel the possibility?, if not, it's possible the default decision could've helped/hurt one team enough to sway the team match result.
So you have to add the 20 point bonus/2.04% of 980.
So, a default in the current FCL could possibly hurt/help by anywhere between 0 and 3.57% of the points available through out season, most of them also less than 1%.
Likelyhood of having an effect
The same as frame count for the 1.53% portion, the part from the possibility of swaying a team match, hard to say how likely, depends on how close the match was, and was there more than one default in that team match? (if so, that raises the odds of an effect). Certainly though, some team matches will have such a lead in the team match score that this isn't possible. So as far as the bonus points portion goes, some defaults will be irrelevant, and some won't.

Thanks, I'm taking a break now lol, will get to the other 2 scoring systems soon.

Individual Match Count
Maximum possible effect of a default? The same 1.79% again. Difference is, there are no in-betweens here. Either the default has no effect (that player would've won the match anyway), or it's the full 1.79% (the player that won the decision would not have won had it been played).
So, a default in indiv match count could possibly hurt/help by 0%, or 1.79% of the points available through out the season.
Likelyhood of having an effect
Hard to say, question is: would the decision winner have won the match had it been played?
You can say for certain though, some defaults will be irrelevant, some won't.

I know you have not finished yet which fine. However I will point out my two key issues that fundamentally are still not addressed.

Any default is based on relevant effort made to get the game played by the player, any subs/swaps and the effort of the clan as a whole. It is not based on any predicted outcome had the game been played.

Therefore, lets say that The Pros were playing Unbeatables and you were playing turtle1560. Uprising are watching on in a worried and interested fashion as they are your big and very close rivals. For some reason turtle1560 goes absent for the duration and Unbeatables have already used any available subs they have or had. You have been trying for the whole two week period, sent messages and posts have been left everywhere. Come default time what will the decision be. I think most would say 15-0 or at least and at worst maybe 12 or 13-0 given the circumstances but realistically it ought to be 15-0 as per the guidelines. In reality it doesnt matter what the actual default score is because it does not change what now follows.

OK so lets now say that the last fixture of the season is The Professionals vs Uprising. You played earlier in the season and it was a draw. Apart from that you have both beaten all the other teams and enter this last match with Uprising now trailing The Pros by 15 points. To keep it really simple lets assume there have been no other defaults for either side. The key point is that Uprising now not only have to beat The Pros in the overall match, they now have to beat them by more than 15 points (or whatever the default score was if less) just to end the season level (or win the League).

In a match count format, the 15-0 default can be awarded because it would not affect what Uprising needed to do. They would only need to beat The Pros to win the League. What happened outside of their control with Unbeatables and turtle1560 has not affected them at all.

OK thats with defaults, but it is equally the same in any played game. Suppose that turtle1560 was feeling really ill or just fed up with funkypool!! You play him, he doesn't try because he doesn't care about the result since Unbeatables cant finish higher or lower than third no matter what anyway and you beat him 13-2. Again Uprising now go into that same final fixture needing not only to beat The Pros but to beat them by 14 points to win the League all because of, once again, a set of circumstances completely outside of their control.

I will use a really simple example of the argument. I will use football because it shows it completely in an easy manner.

Team A 1-0 Team B

Team B v Team C (Team C do not turn up for the game so the governing body awards a 3-0 win to Team B)

Team A v Team C

Team A only need to draw or beat Team C to be first. They don't need to beat them 3-0 to be first.

You can use the FCL for football if you really want to. Again I will use an example purely to illustrate the point.

Team A 70 - 50 Team B

Team B vs Team C (All 8 go to default and the final default scores end up 120-0)

Team A v Team C

Are we saying Team A need to beat Team C 101 - 19 to be first? Anything that happened in that middle game has nothing at all to do with Team A. If Team A go on and lose to Team C then yes what happened in that middle match may affect them. But the point is that as they went into that final match they did not have to achieve anything above and beyond what they would seek to achieve in any other match.

Yes they are silly examples but the underlying principle remains exactly the same no matter what scores and what examples you use.

Edited at 19:19 Mon 24/11/14 (GMT)

Team Match Count
Maximum possible effect of a default?
This system has the highest maximum possible effect, if the outcome of a team match is swayed by a default/s, that's one out of 7 matches, 14.29%.
So a default in team match count could possibly hurt/help by 14.29% of the points available through out the season!
but in chris' defence:
Likelyhood of having an effect
This system has the lowest likelihood of having any effect. Like the bonus points portion in the current FCL, it depends on how close the match was, and was there more than one default in that team match? (if so, that raises the odds of an effect). Of all the systems, this one renders the most defaults irrelevant, but you can still say for certain,
some defaults will be irrelevant, and some won't.

There you are chris, an example of how a default can affect the league table in any scoring system.

Although there are differences in how defaults can affect the league table (things like maximum possible effect, likelihood of having an effect to begin with), after all things considered, there isn't really any difference in the average weight of a default from one system to the other.

Edited at 19:10 Mon 24/11/14 (GMT)

Chris said:
"You have not shown any flaw in any argument - if you had I would respond to that. But you dont so I cant."
This was on the same page where you said that^
http://www.funkypool.com/thread/19738/fcl-general-discussion/47#1701962
http://www.funkypool.com/thread/19738/fcl-general-discussion/47#1702023
If that doesn't show a flaw in an argument, I don't know what does. Just because you didn't acknowledge it, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I was gonna finish responding to your other post, but ok I'll let the rest go, and read your new post instead.

Edited at 19:22 Mon 24/11/14 (GMT)

That was fact not guess work. The defaults in question were very large and Uprising did play more games. I can't quite see why there is any flaw there then.

And there was no flaw pointed out in the other linked post either!!