I explained the fault, I'll repeat:
Don't you understand? Your point (this one, and the underlined part I labeled #2 in the other point) is based on the assumption that the defaults helped us, when they just as likely hurt us.

Just because there was a default, that doesn't mean that it helped us (it is possible, but so is the opposite), that's an assumption you made.

How can a very large default. have hindered you. I actually think they were 15-0's but its on a laptop so I will have to set that up if you want me to check for sure?

I don't recall Pros getting any 15-0's! Last time I looked I didn't see any 15's for anyone, as it should be. Most defaults were around 10 or less.

The rules state that there must be scope for a 15-0 award.

Otherwise it would be open to abuse to settle for a default if you simply needed to avoid losing 15-0.

But defaults or played games doesnt matter. The principle is exactly the same.

"Any default is based on relevant effort made to get the game played by the player, any subs/swaps and the effort of the clan as a whole. It is not based on any predicted outcome had the game been played."
I know that's how you decide defaults, I like chappy's idea better personally but that's beside the point.

Still, if you want to know the effect of a default on league standings, and if you could know what the score would've been, you would use that in comparison with the default decision, to determine how much effect.

About your argument with the undefeated team in match count, yes, if they won all their team matches, and if none of those matches involved a default with the potential of swaying the team match, then for that one team all defaults are rendered irrelevant (same as frame count though really, one team with a massive lead over all other teams would also be effectively unaffected by any defaults, a slight change in their score would change nothing). But only for that one team (that's a lot of if's too, hasn't been an undefeated team in 2 seasons in FCL anyway, correct? and defaults could still affect any other team's score.

About you constantly claiming that defaults are a bigger problem in frame count, I think I've effectively disproven that. Would you please, stop saying it all the time, its not true.

Edited at 19:52 Mon 24/11/14 (GMT)

Edited at 19:55 Mon 24/11/14 (GMT)

As I have always said, you can have any scoring system you want for any competition. However eventually all competitions will evolve to what is considered the best, fairest and most credible.

The fact that there is not one single event anywhere existing on a similar basis to Frame Count that anyone can think of says buckets. Even in any cue sports if we want to keep it strictly like with like. Add to that, that the FCL actually did start with purely Frame Count and subsequently evolved says barrels rather than buckets!!

Apologies but you have not even remotely and it is.

Everything you posted does not address the overall picture for everyone taking part in the whole competition, only the two directly involved.

Did you actually read what I posted? In that situation the default was relevant in deciding what the clan not directly involved now needed to achieve in a purely Frame Count system.

Then you haven't been reading my posts, either that or you've refused to understand them. I think most who read them though, if not going into it with your mindset (mind's made up and can't be wrong), they'll see that I've shown that there is pretty equal average weight from one system to the next. Bored again with trying to convince you though.

responding cause it appeared while I was posting my last ost, but I am bored, leaving now, gonna play some pool
There you simply pointed out one way where defaults can be a problem in frame count. I never denied that they can be, only denied that defaults are exacerbated in frame count.

They are exacerbated because one clan now had to achieve something 'extra' due to events they were not involved in. That simply does not happen on a straightforward, primary basis with match count. It can only happen on a secondary basis. In frame count it happens on a primary basis.

I totally understand your posts, hence my second sentence in the post above. Not sure you understand my view, the majority view here or the wider view of people involved in playing, running, organising or watching competitions in sports and games.

Without that understanding then there's pretty much no where left to go.

Edited at 20:08 Mon 24/11/14 (GMT)

I actually find this quite funny that you can say a large default in frame count has little or no effect, the season before Chris took over the running of the leagues it was well documented that professionals only won the league thanks to a couple of large defaults, so large defaults in frame count can have a huge impact. In the same season the defaults would have only meant 2 points in the game concerned, which was the same 2 points that uprising had against that team. The extra points that professionals were awarded uprising could do nothing about and because they played all 8 games against the same opponents they were penalised and ultimately cost them the league. So all your statistics and explanations stand for nothing against the reality of what has actually happened in the FCL over previous seasons.

OLd saying KISS (keep it simply stupid)

I would say 98% of all defaults done by Chris since he has been a league runner have been more than fair

unlike his predecessor and other clowns in cahoots' with him, manipulating defaults for their own interests

leave Chris and defaults well alone, concentrate on getting games played and sorting your own players out and avoid defaults in the first place, instead of trying to put restrictions on when how people can play

I take it you saw the word default and went for a rant?

The validity of the defaults has never been in question, the affect of defaults as a principle in a scoring system is what is being discussed. The above mentioned example being Uprising scored lower than they would've in a default and pro's got that big score via default. No malice or bias from a person just an identified flaw to address. Keep to a discussion, don't drag it down and try to make it personal.

Not sure what you mean by primary and secondary, I assume your talking about whether defaults can 'keep a team from winning/cause a team to win' the league, without the team in question being directly involved in said default? What do you mean it can't happen in match count?, of course it can. I'd describe specific circumstances as an example the way you like to do, but what's the point? Waste of time, not gonna change your mind anyway, you'll still insist that frame count exacerbates the possibility of a default upsetting the league table, even though you've tried and failed to prove it.

keith said:
"I actually find this quite funny that you can say a large default in frame count has little or no effect, "

I never said that, I did say no default anywhere is guaranteed to have an effect, but in any scoring system an effect is possible.
I said frame count has the lowest possible maximum effect for one default (1.79% of the total points available for the season), but also pointed out it has the highest likelihood of effect. I never said that's not enough to upset the league table, given a tight enough race, and the right circumstances, 2 frames/0.24% is enough to upset who wins the league.

^ That last sentence is true for any scoring system.
I've only been trying to show there's an equal chance of defaults ruining any scoring system.
and now I'm done trying.

Edited at 21:52 Tue 25/11/14 (GMT)

I said it cant happen in match count on a primary basis - only a secondary basis.

Primary means does what happens elsewhere directly and 100% affect me no matter what, and no matter what I do? In frame count yes it does with the acceptance that no one will win every frame in a season. In match count - if I win all my matches I win the League no matter what anyone does elsewhere.

Secondary means it only affects me if I don't achieve what I need to achieve in the first instance - ie if I don't win all my matches. Winning all your matches is eminently possible for the winning team in clan competitions and has happened far more over the seasons in all competitions than it hasn't.

But if you have an example on a primary basis then fire away.

I've addressed that already, in frame count, all you need is a big lead and defaults can't touch you, same as winning all your matches in match count. and you always fail to consider the possibility of a default enabling a team to win all their matches, in that circumstance one default has ruined every other 'team with one loss''s chance at winning the league.
We keep going in circles because you insist on ignoring things that have already been pointed out, I'm bored with it.

Please go back and read my earlier examples because you have either misunderstood them or ignored them.

They have nothing to do with big leads. They show how where teams are reletively even at a point in time, one team can be adversely affected by something that they are not involved in in any way, shape or form on a primary basis.

And a default cannot help any team win all their games without their rivals having had the opportunity themselves, directly, to do something about it either by defeating that other clan themselves in their own match or by winning the default if it is in their own match.

Edited at 22:28 Tue 25/11/14 (GMT)