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01:30 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
Sounds good to me!!!
Complicated to me!
It won't require anything from anyone, that they aren't already doing, except a minute or two of chris's time at season's end
I had an idea,
It's about the old 'frame count' vs 'team match count' thing. I realize the last 2 seasons we'd have had the same winner using either method anyway, and most seasons that will be the case, but:
On the rare occasion that the 2 methods would have rewarded 2 different teams, have a 2nd trophy (call it Frame Count Shield, Golden Boot, whatever) for the team that won the most frames.
I think this way, those of us that prefer frame count won't feel so hard done by, the team we deem the best will at least get some recognition, even if they don't win the main title.
The Super league's League Leader's Shield inspired this. One league, multiple awards for different accomplishments, good idea
Chris has already said in message he's happy to do it (the info is already there, no extra work needed), wanted me to propose it to everyone though, make sure there isn't people against it for some unforeseen reason.
Again, the one with bonus points included would remain the 'main title', the award for frame count would be of less significance, like the League Leader's Shield in SL.
It's about the old 'frame count' vs 'team match count' thing. I realize the last 2 seasons we'd have had the same winner using either method anyway, and most seasons that will be the case, but:
On the rare occasion that the 2 methods would have rewarded 2 different teams, have a 2nd trophy (call it Frame Count Shield, Golden Boot, whatever) for the team that won the most frames.
I think this way, those of us that prefer frame count won't feel so hard done by, the team we deem the best will at least get some recognition, even if they don't win the main title.
The Super league's League Leader's Shield inspired this. One league, multiple awards for different accomplishments, good idea
Chris has already said in message he's happy to do it (the info is already there, no extra work needed), wanted me to propose it to everyone though, make sure there isn't people against it for some unforeseen reason.
Again, the one with bonus points included would remain the 'main title', the award for frame count would be of less significance, like the League Leader's Shield in SL.
Sounds good to me!!!
Complicated to me!
It won't require anything from anyone, that they aren't already doing, except a minute or two of chris's time at season's end
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11:14 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
I still think the bonus points for winning a fixture should be taken away.
Who cares if you go unbeaten the whole season, if the team didn't win the most frames over the course of the season, then you clearly should not deserve to win the title.
Simple
Who cares if you go unbeaten the whole season, if the team didn't win the most frames over the course of the season, then you clearly should not deserve to win the title.
Simple
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13:25 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
I just don't understand why you would care for a minor trophy. What's wrong with just patting themselves on the back for a good season without winning the league. As for an unbeaten team not winning the league wait till your in one as you'll quickly understand why that's ridiculous.
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13:36 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
The FBL and the SL both reward teams for going unbeaten in a season.
Just seems ridiculous that people wont consider the option, just shoot it down again.
And as for me being in a team capable of winning the league, next joke..
Just seems ridiculous that people wont consider the option, just shoot it down again.
And as for me being in a team capable of winning the league, next joke..
14:33 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
I agree with you chappy, and this 'unbeaten' argument doesn't prove anything. A game on this site is one frame (with the obvious exception of killer and straight), when the 8 or 9 drops, the game is over, you have to start a new one. A team match is not one game, it's 120 of them! If you look at games, and not team matches, no team ever goes 'unbeaten'.
But after about 5 seasons of begging, and the bonus remaining anyway, I thought of this 2nd trophy. If we can't have our way in at least one of the 3 leagues, at least we could have our own trophy, that gives recognition to our preferred scoring system.
But after about 5 seasons of begging, and the bonus remaining anyway, I thought of this 2nd trophy. If we can't have our way in at least one of the 3 leagues, at least we could have our own trophy, that gives recognition to our preferred scoring system.
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14:40 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
My view is this, 120 games per fixture x amount of fixtures, eg 8.
120 frames x 8 = 960 frames.
The team that wins the closest to 960 should be the champions.
It's not rocket science haha
120 frames x 8 = 960 frames.
The team that wins the closest to 960 should be the champions.
It's not rocket science haha
14:42 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
I totally agree, but chris doesn't, isn't willing to run a league's main title that way. He is willing, however, to do this 2nd trophy
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14:57 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
It is a shame that other teams do not see how beneficial this could be, makes it a game where you have to win the most frames possible, rather than get the win and then adding the bonus.
It is great that he is willing to add the second trophy, but the main trophy should be for the team that wins the most throughout the course of the entire season..
It is great that he is willing to add the second trophy, but the main trophy should be for the team that wins the most throughout the course of the entire season..
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17:30 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
What is actually far more relevant is what constitutes a game, as in a match, on here as well as pretty much everywhere else.
And that is a contest between either two individuals or two teams over whatever length has been deemed. Whether that is one rack, three racks, five racks or any other number of racks in tournaments, any number of agreed racks in normal ranked games, 2 or 8 racks in the FBL, or for teams where racks are totalled then 120 racks for in an FCL game and 48 racks in the SL.
You yourself have even said that a team match is 120 individual games. Well what is the overall benefit of winning each of those team matches?
The only way I would ever support a rack count competition would be if all matches were one rack - ie a player played x number of one rack games against x number of different individual opponent players.
A game on this site is one frame (with the obvious exception of killer and straight), when the 8 or 9 drops, the game is over, you have to start a new one. A team match is not one game, it's 120 of them! If you look at games, and not team matches, no team ever goes 'unbeaten'.
What is actually far more relevant is what constitutes a game, as in a match, on here as well as pretty much everywhere else.
And that is a contest between either two individuals or two teams over whatever length has been deemed. Whether that is one rack, three racks, five racks or any other number of racks in tournaments, any number of agreed racks in normal ranked games, 2 or 8 racks in the FBL, or for teams where racks are totalled then 120 racks for in an FCL game and 48 racks in the SL.
You yourself have even said that a team match is 120 individual games. Well what is the overall benefit of winning each of those team matches?
The only way I would ever support a rack count competition would be if all matches were one rack - ie a player played x number of one rack games against x number of different individual opponent players.
17:47 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
I guess a game can be whatever we choose it to be
and I know you disagree with frame count
I was just pointing out (in the above quote) that onevisit's "unbeaten" argument isn't even applicable if you can stop looking at a team match as one game for 5 seconds.
To answer the question you posed,
If you count frames alone, team matches mean nothing, the team that can win the highest percentage out of 120(x) (x depending on how many clans) frames is what matters.
Edited at 15:52 Wed 19/11/14 (GMT)
and I know you disagree with frame count
I was just pointing out (in the above quote) that onevisit's "unbeaten" argument isn't even applicable if you can stop looking at a team match as one game for 5 seconds.
To answer the question you posed,
If you count frames alone, team matches mean nothing, the team that can win the highest percentage out of 120(x) (x depending on how many clans) frames is what matters.
Edited at 15:52 Wed 19/11/14 (GMT)
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17:49 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
I have, I have looked at it as a 120 game match as per your post. My point is the same though. What benefit do you get from winning that match?
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18:24 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
So, as per your answer, you no longer have any matches at all - neither individual or team?
18:39 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
Of course you play matches, every team vs every other team, randomly matched individuals too, but the frames are what is recorded.
Not sure why you ask what you know the answer to....
I'm sure you know it's just like FCL currently is without the bonus points
Edited at 16:42 Wed 19/11/14 (GMT)
Not sure why you ask what you know the answer to....
I'm sure you know it's just like FCL currently is without the bonus points
Edited at 16:42 Wed 19/11/14 (GMT)
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19:00 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
So the match itself - either on the individual basis or the team basis is irrelevant. The fact is that with the bonus points the Frame Count negative is inhibited.
Thats where we come back to my original point of what constitutes a match. On here in normal site play, and in pretty much every competition I can think of, the overall match (however it is deemed) is relevant and is rewarded suitably. That is the basic concept of competition. However in frame count you can beat your opponent or your clan can beat every other clan and yet it can be rendered irrelevant by events elsewhere and out of your control.
As you rightly say, no clan will win every single rack therefore you cant realistically have a competition which can be decided by racks or matches in which you are not directly involved. That is what does happen if you outscore your direct opponents in every single match you play and yet do not win the League.
Thats where we come back to my original point of what constitutes a match. On here in normal site play, and in pretty much every competition I can think of, the overall match (however it is deemed) is relevant and is rewarded suitably. That is the basic concept of competition. However in frame count you can beat your opponent or your clan can beat every other clan and yet it can be rendered irrelevant by events elsewhere and out of your control.
As you rightly say, no clan will win every single rack therefore you cant realistically have a competition which can be decided by racks or matches in which you are not directly involved. That is what does happen if you outscore your direct opponents in every single match you play and yet do not win the League.
19:08 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
Bump as all the arguments regarding the requirement for bonus points can be removed by applying a normal team event scoring system. It also means an unbeaten team will always win the league regardless of individual match scores.
If you want to have frames count why not go the full distance and remove bonus points. Make it 2 points for the clan who wins the fixture and then use the frame count to split teams that are tied on points. It does away with the bonus that some don't like and it allows frames to be used as a divider for level teams, as some love the number of frames they win, An unbeaten team can never not win the league regardless as if they won every game 61-59, they win the league. It also give clans the chance to rotate more if they choose as the most important thing is getting to 61 points and not winning by as many racks as possible.
Bump as all the arguments regarding the requirement for bonus points can be removed by applying a normal team event scoring system. It also means an unbeaten team will always win the league regardless of individual match scores.
19:12 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
1 Not totally, you could've scored more frames than you did at any point during the season, that's in your control.
2 I think that's what makes it so much more accurate of what happened on the table.
3 I don't see why not, you had the same opportunities to win frames that every other team did.
So the match itself - either on the individual basis or the team basis is irrelevant. The fact is that with the bonus points the Frame Count negative is inhibited.
Thats where we come back to my original point of what constitutes a match. On here in normal site play, and in pretty much every competition I can think of, the overall match (however it is deemed) is relevant and is rewarded suitably. That is the basic concept of competition. However in frame count you can beat your opponent or your clan can beat every other clan and yet it can be rendered irrelevant by events elsewhere and out of your control 1.
As you rightly say, no clan will win every single rack 2 therefore you cant realistically have a competition which can be decided by racks or matches in which you are not directly involved3.That is what does happen if you outscore your direct opponents in every single match you play and yet do not win the League.
Thats where we come back to my original point of what constitutes a match. On here in normal site play, and in pretty much every competition I can think of, the overall match (however it is deemed) is relevant and is rewarded suitably. That is the basic concept of competition. However in frame count you can beat your opponent or your clan can beat every other clan and yet it can be rendered irrelevant by events elsewhere and out of your control 1.
As you rightly say, no clan will win every single rack 2 therefore you cant realistically have a competition which can be decided by racks or matches in which you are not directly involved3.That is what does happen if you outscore your direct opponents in every single match you play and yet do not win the League.
1 Not totally, you could've scored more frames than you did at any point during the season, that's in your control.
2 I think that's what makes it so much more accurate of what happened on the table.
3 I don't see why not, you had the same opportunities to win frames that every other team did.
19:17 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
About the 2nd trophy on the rare occasion, only onevisit seemed to be really against, and became uninterested (I believe) when he realized it's a minor, secondary trophy I'm proposing.
Still a go?
Still a go?
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19:18 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
1 Not totally, you could've scored more frames than you did at any point during the season, that's in your control.
2 I think that's what makes it so much more accurate of what happened on the table.
3 I don't see why not, you had the same opportunities to win frames that every other team did.
Not necessarily. Suppose my clan outscores all its opposing clans in every match and yet your clan then gets drawn against a clan on its last legs at that moment in time which ends up with half a dozen large defaults. My clan can do nothing at all about that.
Yes that can still happen under the current scoring system - but with bonus points the chances of that are reduced somewhat - however in any pure competition format along the lines of what Keith has posted that rightly cannot happen full stop.
1 Not totally, you could've scored more frames than you did at any point during the season, that's in your control.
2 I think that's what makes it so much more accurate of what happened on the table.
3 I don't see why not, you had the same opportunities to win frames that every other team did.
Not necessarily. Suppose my clan outscores all its opposing clans in every match and yet your clan then gets drawn against a clan on its last legs at that moment in time which ends up with half a dozen large defaults. My clan can do nothing at all about that.
Yes that can still happen under the current scoring system - but with bonus points the chances of that are reduced somewhat - however in any pure competition format along the lines of what Keith has posted that rightly cannot happen full stop.
19:21 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
Bump as all the arguments regarding the requirement for bonus points can be removed by applying a normal team event scoring system. It also means an unbeaten team will always win the league regardless of individual match scores.
That would remove frame count completely, unless there's a tie. It would comparitively be nothing but bonus points, wouldn't be recognizable as the FCL anymore.
If you want to have frames count why not go the full distance and remove bonus points. Make it 2 points for the clan who wins the fixture and then use the frame count to split teams that are tied on points. It does away with the bonus that some don't like and it allows frames to be used as a divider for level teams, as some love the number of frames they win, An unbeaten team can never not win the league regardless as if they won every game 61-59, they win the league. It also give clans the chance to rotate more if they choose as the most important thing is getting to 61 points and not winning by as many racks as possible.
Bump as all the arguments regarding the requirement for bonus points can be removed by applying a normal team event scoring system. It also means an unbeaten team will always win the league regardless of individual match scores.
That would remove frame count completely, unless there's a tie. It would comparitively be nothing but bonus points, wouldn't be recognizable as the FCL anymore.
19:26 Wed 19 Nov 14 (GMT) [Link]
Defaults can be a problem in any scoring system, equally so, don't see what point that proves.
a 2-0 victory in his format is just like a 120-0 in the current one (wouldn't happen), a default would be no different, both times one team gets 100% of the available points. But 100% isn't an accurate reflection of what happened, or would've happened. and in the current default system, 100% won't happen, that's realistic. In keith's format, it's always 100% for the team match win, defaults or not, so I could argue that defaults could actually weigh more under his format (if it swayed a team match one way or the other).
Edited at 17:52 Wed 19/11/14 (GMT)
Not necessarily. Suppose my clan outscores all its opposing clans in every match and yet your clan then gets drawn against a clan on its last legs at that moment in time which ends up with half a dozen large defaults. My clan can do nothing at all about that.
Yes that can still happen under the current scoring system - but with bonus points the chances of that are reduced somewhat - however in any pure competition format along the lines of what Keith has posted that rightly cannot happen full stop.
Yes that can still happen under the current scoring system - but with bonus points the chances of that are reduced somewhat - however in any pure competition format along the lines of what Keith has posted that rightly cannot happen full stop.
Defaults can be a problem in any scoring system, equally so, don't see what point that proves.
a 2-0 victory in his format is just like a 120-0 in the current one (wouldn't happen), a default would be no different, both times one team gets 100% of the available points. But 100% isn't an accurate reflection of what happened, or would've happened. and in the current default system, 100% won't happen, that's realistic. In keith's format, it's always 100% for the team match win, defaults or not, so I could argue that defaults could actually weigh more under his format (if it swayed a team match one way or the other).
Edited at 17:52 Wed 19/11/14 (GMT)
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